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Joey Hess 2015-05-17 17:27:24 -04:00
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[[!comment format=mdwn
username="http://joeyh.name/"
subject="comment 2"
date="2015-05-16T18:35:22Z"
content="""
Unfortunately stack exchange is nearly unusable for me on dialup. In order for me to contribute to any git-annex communication channels, it needs to be something that can be taken offline, like git or email.
"""]]

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[[!comment format=mdwn
username="https://id.koumbit.net/anarcat"
subject="comment 3"
date="2015-05-16T21:46:20Z"
content="""
interesting! i didn't think of those requirements, which do seem quite stringent, but i am certainly sensitive to them, considering i will be spending my own significant amount of time with intermittent access soon.
i have opened a todo item to move the discussion somewhere more relevant, see [[todo/enable_a_discussion_forum_or_support_system]].
"""]]

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I has been [[discussed|devblog/day_268_stressed_out]]
[[twice|devblog/day_285__tuning_git-annex_unused_refs]] that the
current [[forum]] support system is not ideal for providing
support. It constitutes the [largest part of this wiki][] yet we
sometimes get duplicated questions and it seems the forum may be a
barrier to entry for people.
[largest part of this wiki]: http://git-annex.branchable.com/devblog/day_268_stressed_out/#comment-e0814585df0047e6d4e11515aebe1dec
A few alternatives have been proposed, from a mailing list to using a
StackExchange site. This post is to discuss the possible
alternatives. The requirement is that the system may be available
offline and on low-bandwidth connections yet enable conversations
better than a simple web forum or mailing list; which may end up being
the only solution considering the first requirements, but let's give
it a try. :)
Stack exchange
==============
i looked up how this works in stackexchange, and it turns out they
provide [regular dumps][] of the data hosted. unfortunately, it's a
gigantic zip file and not really designed for low-bandwidth
use. There's also a [data explorer][] that was promising, until i
realized that the query engine takes up 154KB, three times the space
of the regular search engine (~54KB, which I guess is way too much for
dialup).
[regular dumps]: http://blog.stackoverflow.com/category/cc-wiki-dump/
[data explorer]: http://data.stackexchange.com/
Also: there is a [mobile version][] of all the stackexchange sites,
which take up around 3KB, but still only works online. There's an app
for mobile devices as well, but it [doesn't support offline access
either][] - so another dead-end.
[mobile version]: http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/104458/switch-to-mobile-site-on-standard-browser
[doesn't support offline access either]: http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/220036/offline-features-in-stack-exchange-app
Stackexchange runs a [garbled mess][] of IIS, MSSQL, ASP, Redis and
Elasticsearch so there is probably little hope in integrating into
something like git. I have asked for the [proverbial pony in this
stackexchange question][] (yes, it's all very meta), describing the
use case, but i am not holding my breath for a change.
[garbled mess]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_Exchange#Technologies_used
[proverbial pony in this stackexchange question]: http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/256573/best-way-to-use-stackexchange-sites-offline-or-on-dialup
Askbot
======
Besides, SE sites are based on proprietary software, and i am not sure
we'd want to advocate that here. There are free software alternatives,
of which i made an [evaluation about 2 years ago][] after which we
tried Askbot at [Koumbit][]. it never took off: staff didn't seem
interested in it so much and we never made people aware of it too
much. plus, it didn't integrate with existing authentication
mechanisms (which are a little bit of a mess for us)...
But it does seem like an interesting alternative, and has [primitive
email integration][] where you can ask questions by email, but not
answer (!). I haven't looked at such support in other software, but i
suspect it is similarly not a priority as they struggle to monetize
their free software...
Most of those free software alternatives of Stackexchange are written
in Python/Django or Ruby/Rails (iirc) with SQL backends, which would
probably make git integration... also "challenging".
[evaluation about 2 years ago]: (https://wiki.koumbit.net/FaqService#A.2BAMk-valuation_logicielle)
[Koumbit]: http://koumbit.org/
[primitive email integration]: http://askbot.org/doc/sending-email-to-askbot.html
Discourse
=========
From that point of view, maybe [discourse][] could be an interesting
alternative. It has built-in email support, as it is designed as an
alternative to mailing lists. With a simple setting, you can
collaborate directly by email. What is interesting, compared to the
mailing list model, is that posts can be collaboratively edited to
(for example) arrive at a collective wisdom by refining an answer (or
a question). There are also interesting community moderation and
reputation systems.
There seems to be some [offline tool][] for Discourse, but it's
unclear to me how it works, as it seems to be a separate (nodejs!)
application that connects with a discourse plugin. There's a
[discussion about offline suport in discourse][] in the meta site...
Discourse uses Ruby/Rails and PostgreSQL, and somewhat is only
[officially supported in Docker][]...
The discourse people do [warn against switching existing
communities][] to Discourse because of the resulting friction, so it
is also in that spirit that I open discussion about this here, that
is, in the hope the change can be acknowledged, supported and
discussed by everyone here, in a spirit of consensus building. :)
[offline tool]: https://github.com/etewiah/offcourse
[discussion about offline suport in discourse]: https://meta.discourse.org/t/offcourse-a-proof-of-concept-offline-reader-for-discourse/22356
[discourse]: http://discourse.org/
[warn against switching existing communities]: http://www.discourse.org/faq/#switch
[officially supported in Docker]: https://github.com/discourse/discourse/blob/master/docs/INSTALL.md
Mailing lists
=============
Of course, the forum could simply be moved to a mailing list. The
would have the advantage of reducing the barrier of entry to the site,
reduce the load on the wiki, at the cost of adding the additionnal
"how do i subscribe to a mailing list" barrier of entry, which, oddly
enough, exists for a lot of mailing lists...
Like it or not, web forums do enable a lot of less technical users to
participate because they only need their web browser, and crossing
that boundary can be hard for some people. Mailing lists also do not
necessarily favor collaboration as much as the other systems...
Web forums
==========
There's a plethora of "php-bb-like" software out there, i am just
ignoring them for now, as I am not very familiar with them and they
have never been too attractive for me, but people are of course free
to edit this page to add suggestions! :)