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[[!comment format=mdwn
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username="http://joeyh.name/"
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subject="comment 2"
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date="2015-05-16T18:35:22Z"
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content="""
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Unfortunately stack exchange is nearly unusable for me on dialup. In order for me to contribute to any git-annex communication channels, it needs to be something that can be taken offline, like git or email.
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"""]]
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[[!comment format=mdwn
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username="https://id.koumbit.net/anarcat"
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subject="comment 3"
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date="2015-05-16T21:46:20Z"
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content="""
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interesting! i didn't think of those requirements, which do seem quite stringent, but i am certainly sensitive to them, considering i will be spending my own significant amount of time with intermittent access soon.
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i have opened a todo item to move the discussion somewhere more relevant, see [[todo/enable_a_discussion_forum_or_support_system]].
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"""]]
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doc/todo/enable_a_discussion_forum_or_support_system.mdwn
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I has been [[discussed|devblog/day_268_stressed_out]]
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[[twice|devblog/day_285__tuning_git-annex_unused_refs]] that the
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current [[forum]] support system is not ideal for providing
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support. It constitutes the [largest part of this wiki][] yet we
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sometimes get duplicated questions and it seems the forum may be a
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barrier to entry for people.
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[largest part of this wiki]: http://git-annex.branchable.com/devblog/day_268_stressed_out/#comment-e0814585df0047e6d4e11515aebe1dec
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A few alternatives have been proposed, from a mailing list to using a
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StackExchange site. This post is to discuss the possible
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alternatives. The requirement is that the system may be available
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offline and on low-bandwidth connections yet enable conversations
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better than a simple web forum or mailing list; which may end up being
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the only solution considering the first requirements, but let's give
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it a try. :)
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Stack exchange
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==============
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i looked up how this works in stackexchange, and it turns out they
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provide [regular dumps][] of the data hosted. unfortunately, it's a
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gigantic zip file and not really designed for low-bandwidth
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use. There's also a [data explorer][] that was promising, until i
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realized that the query engine takes up 154KB, three times the space
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of the regular search engine (~54KB, which I guess is way too much for
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dialup).
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[regular dumps]: http://blog.stackoverflow.com/category/cc-wiki-dump/
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[data explorer]: http://data.stackexchange.com/
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Also: there is a [mobile version][] of all the stackexchange sites,
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which take up around 3KB, but still only works online. There's an app
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for mobile devices as well, but it [doesn't support offline access
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either][] - so another dead-end.
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[mobile version]: http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/104458/switch-to-mobile-site-on-standard-browser
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[doesn't support offline access either]: http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/220036/offline-features-in-stack-exchange-app
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Stackexchange runs a [garbled mess][] of IIS, MSSQL, ASP, Redis and
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Elasticsearch so there is probably little hope in integrating into
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something like git. I have asked for the [proverbial pony in this
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stackexchange question][] (yes, it's all very meta), describing the
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use case, but i am not holding my breath for a change.
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[garbled mess]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_Exchange#Technologies_used
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[proverbial pony in this stackexchange question]: http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/256573/best-way-to-use-stackexchange-sites-offline-or-on-dialup
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Askbot
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======
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Besides, SE sites are based on proprietary software, and i am not sure
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we'd want to advocate that here. There are free software alternatives,
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of which i made an [evaluation about 2 years ago][] after which we
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tried Askbot at [Koumbit][]. it never took off: staff didn't seem
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interested in it so much and we never made people aware of it too
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much. plus, it didn't integrate with existing authentication
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mechanisms (which are a little bit of a mess for us)...
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But it does seem like an interesting alternative, and has [primitive
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email integration][] where you can ask questions by email, but not
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answer (!). I haven't looked at such support in other software, but i
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suspect it is similarly not a priority as they struggle to monetize
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their free software...
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Most of those free software alternatives of Stackexchange are written
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in Python/Django or Ruby/Rails (iirc) with SQL backends, which would
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probably make git integration... also "challenging".
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[evaluation about 2 years ago]: (https://wiki.koumbit.net/FaqService#A.2BAMk-valuation_logicielle)
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[Koumbit]: http://koumbit.org/
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[primitive email integration]: http://askbot.org/doc/sending-email-to-askbot.html
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Discourse
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=========
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From that point of view, maybe [discourse][] could be an interesting
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alternative. It has built-in email support, as it is designed as an
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alternative to mailing lists. With a simple setting, you can
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collaborate directly by email. What is interesting, compared to the
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mailing list model, is that posts can be collaboratively edited to
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(for example) arrive at a collective wisdom by refining an answer (or
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a question). There are also interesting community moderation and
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reputation systems.
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There seems to be some [offline tool][] for Discourse, but it's
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unclear to me how it works, as it seems to be a separate (nodejs!)
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application that connects with a discourse plugin. There's a
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[discussion about offline suport in discourse][] in the meta site...
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Discourse uses Ruby/Rails and PostgreSQL, and somewhat is only
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[officially supported in Docker][]...
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The discourse people do [warn against switching existing
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communities][] to Discourse because of the resulting friction, so it
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is also in that spirit that I open discussion about this here, that
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is, in the hope the change can be acknowledged, supported and
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discussed by everyone here, in a spirit of consensus building. :)
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[offline tool]: https://github.com/etewiah/offcourse
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[discussion about offline suport in discourse]: https://meta.discourse.org/t/offcourse-a-proof-of-concept-offline-reader-for-discourse/22356
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[discourse]: http://discourse.org/
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[warn against switching existing communities]: http://www.discourse.org/faq/#switch
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[officially supported in Docker]: https://github.com/discourse/discourse/blob/master/docs/INSTALL.md
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Mailing lists
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=============
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Of course, the forum could simply be moved to a mailing list. The
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would have the advantage of reducing the barrier of entry to the site,
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reduce the load on the wiki, at the cost of adding the additionnal
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"how do i subscribe to a mailing list" barrier of entry, which, oddly
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enough, exists for a lot of mailing lists...
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Like it or not, web forums do enable a lot of less technical users to
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participate because they only need their web browser, and crossing
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that boundary can be hard for some people. Mailing lists also do not
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necessarily favor collaboration as much as the other systems...
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Web forums
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==========
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There's a plethora of "php-bb-like" software out there, i am just
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ignoring them for now, as I am not very familiar with them and they
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have never been too attractive for me, but people are of course free
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to edit this page to add suggestions! :)
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